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White privilege is not real
in Politics
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That is the only thing I can think of.
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Privilege- an advantage available only to a particular person or group of people.
Real- actually existing
Yes, it does exist. However, some white people do not experience it. The majority do, however. I say this because of United States' racist and oppressive history. Such as redlining and slavery.
Redlining is what I will focus on here. I will use the following sources, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining, https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/the-racist-housing-policy-that-made-your-neighborhood/371439/, http://www.blackpast.org/aah/redlining-1937, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/28/evidence-that-banks-still-deny-black-borrowers-just-as-they-did-50-years-ago/?utm_term=.dda090b9d92d, and https://www.youube.com/watch?v=ETR9qrVS17.
So, yes it is a real thing. Even though the policy ended, it still affects us. This means white privagle exists.
As @Fascism said, it is that "If you are white you are more likely to be born into a richer family, while if you are black you are more likely to be born into poverty."
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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What about my argument? Is that going ignored?
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Ha, that's funny. Ok, I will answer that. Because of this policy, white people are much more wealthy. They can easily pass down the money and advantages. However, minority communities can't. They cannot do that because they do not have these advantages. Many of the "red" areas still face poverty to this day.
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Asian American families also have disproportionally high incomes. Asian privilege must exist as well.
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“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Also, thank you for saying it is a good argument.
“We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.” - Benjamin Franklin So flat Earthers, man-made climate change deniers, and just science deniers.
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Then it you want to make claims of your own try backing them up in future.
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Do they have a special right? No, the constitution said we are all equal.
Do they have a special advantage? Depends.
Definitely, they are "born" richer, but does society grant them that? Is it definite that white people would be born richer? Nope.
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I'll just quote you on this: "However, some white people do not experience it"
"Privilege- an advantage available only to a particular person or group of people."
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Harder for then to get jobs than what? Than for Irish immigrants during the Potato Famine? Than for Asians who were brought to the US as slaves?
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If you're going to say that it's harder for one race to obtain a job then I'm afraid I must see some sort of fair comparison as the statement is purely relative. So let's say I buy it, ok...so they have it harder than who?
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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@BaconToes You highlight the phrase "group of people" and use that against @Pogue. "Group of people" implies a collective. When someone refers to white people as a group, they view them as one entity. The individual is not considered. If individuals are considered when judging a group, then sure: Men are not stronger than women because some women are stronger than some men. "Group of people" judges all men as one entity and all women as one entity. In this case, men are generally stronger than women. Same thing applies to white privilege. White people are more likely to be born rich than black people in general, therefore white privilege exists.
@Varrack Privilege doesn't imply systematic racism.
Privilege - a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.
There is a difference between higher wage and being born rich. Higher wage can be a result of privilege, but it is not absolute since higher wage can also come from hard work. So it depends how the higher wage was acquired. Being born rich isn't a result of hard work, therefore, it is a privilege. If you can prove that Asians are born richer than white people then I will agree that they have privilege.
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I not following your logic in deducing white people have an inherent right, advantage, immunity that is granted to them. How is being born into anything here in America a privilege? There is nothing in the definition "privilege" that denote just because someone is born into a particular family that it in of itself is not a privilege. Can you give some specific's on exactly how and when white privilege occurs, not hypothetical situations? But real world "privilege." I read where a flesh tone band-aide was a sign of white privilege. That is nonsense, manufacturers usually mass produce base on statistical marketing. Example: why are door's manufactured at 6' 8"? It because that 95% of the population is under the height of 6' 8". Now is that short people privilege?
I contend that, while there is discrimination and it goes both ways. I don't believe there to be a systemic issue of privilege in today's society. This notion is part of selling identity politics and is going to cause more division amongst social groups. This ideology play right into fringes of left. So, if we are going to prove or disprove the existence of "white privilege" give some real case studies and real worldwide spread evidence because you can derive a hypothetical situation for anything you want to prove.
"White people are more likely to be born rich than black people in general, therefore white privilege exists"
- But it is not absolute since higher wage can also come from hard work. YES, this is what it is all about. I've had a simple philosophy in my career, it's just working harder and smarter than the next guy/gal. It's paid off, most people usually don't what to put for the effort. Employers don't get rid of assets, that get rid of dead weight. Work hard and you will be fine.
- Being born rich isn't a result of hard work, therefore, it is a privilege. Negative, no one controls where and how they are born. It is all happenstance.
So, let's talk about some real-world instance of privilege.  Considerate: 66%  
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"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent"
Pogue clearly said it was harder for people of colour to get jobs. You replied that you thought it was unbelievable that it was impossible for them to get jobs. He never claimed it was impossible - he said it was harder. Therefore you rejected his argument on an obviously fallacious basis.
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There are different forms of privilege - it's not all or nothing. A wealthy black person wouldn't have white privilege (Surprise: they're not white) but they would have wealth privilege. How different forms of privilege intersect is referred to as intersectionality. The minority person would have advantages poor people and be privileged, but they can still run into situations where they are disadvantaged because of their race and a white person would not be. Privilege is context dependent.
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Harder for them to get jobs than what? Than for Irish immigrants during the Potato Famine? Than for Asians who were brought to the US as slaves?
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So according to this chart, Asians make considerably more than any other ethnicity. So should we say there is Asain privilege? If not, why not?
A wealthy black person wouldn't have white privilege (Surprise: they're not white) but they would have wealth privilege.
The minority person would have advantages poor people and be privileged, but they can still run into situations where they are disadvantaged because of their race and a white person would not be. Privilege is context dependent.
Oxford Dicsionary:
Sociologist Definition of Racism: Race, Prejudice, and Power
Racism = Race Prejudice + Power
Race
A specious classification of human beings created by Europeans (whites) which assigns human worth and social status using ‘white’ as the model of humanity and the height of human achievement for the purpose of establishing and maintaining privilege and power. The idea of Race, is based on the ideas of white supremacy and white privilege.
Prejudice
A prejudice is a pre-judgment in favor of or against a person, a group, an event, an idea, or a thing. An action based on prejudgment is discrimination. A negative prejudgment is often called a stereotype. An action based on a stereotype is called bigotry.
Power
Power” is a relational term. It can only be understood as a relationship between human beings in a specific historical, economic and social setting. It must be exercised to be visible.
1. Power is control of, or access to, those institutions sanctioned by the state.
2. Power is the ability to define reality and to convince other people that it is their definition.
3. Power is ownership and control of the major resources of a state, and the capacity to make and enforce decisions based on this ownership and control;
4. Power is the capacity of a group of people to decide what they want and to act in an organized way to get it.
5. (In terms of an individual), power is the capacity to act.
Sociologist Definition of White Privilege:
A privilege is a right, favor, advantage, immunity, specially granted to one individual or group, and withheld from another. White privilege is a historically based, institutionally perpetuated system of:
(1) Preferential prejudice for and treatment of white people based solely on their skin color and/or ancestral origin from Europe; and
(2) Exemption from racial and/or national oppression based on skin color and/or ancestral origin from Africa, Asia, the Americas and the Arab world.
So, what is this all saying? Do white people today have to pay for the sins of others in the past?
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The part you've requoted from yourself is also irrelevant.
Just like someone who is murdered but is not murdered in the most horrible way in the world is still a murder victim and someone can be hungry without being the hungriest person to ever live; people can be disadvantaged relative to others without being the most disadvantaged people to ever live in the history of the world.
Nothing in the definition of white privilege is effected by whether there were people in different eras even less privileged than minorities today, so this is another example of an irrelevant strawman fallacy.
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I didn't pretend anything didn't happen, I leave that up to you. Since we're butchering definitions (Irish aren't white, Asians aren't minorities, etc.), my comment stands. The whole topic of "white privilege" is nothing but a strawman. You want to dismiss out-of-hand the similar experiences of Irish and Asians because it's convenient, but if these groups could overcome the obstacles that were in their way and thrive in the US, so can the minorities of today. "White privilege" is just an excuse.
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Most of your post is quotes, so I'll address your points:
"Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF): Racism and discrimination are wrong period, all people of every race and color deserve to be treated fairly and not judged based upon one's religion, color, origin, or ethnicity. I also believe, just because of one's color, religion, origin and/or ethnicity does not make them a racist or privileged."
No-one is saying that having an ethnicity = having privilege. People are saying that having an ethnicity results in tangible differences in outcome (as you yourself admit in your post) and that this is classified as privilege.
"So according to this chart, Asians make considerably more than any other ethnicity. So should we say there is Asain privilege? If not, why not?"
You can talk about Asian privilege, but that's a tricky area because it often crosses over with benevolent racism - e.g. "Look at asians, they're so clever - not very good at sports of course!". However you are missing the point. As I mentioned in my last post economic expectations are just an easily definable metric. Ethnic based privilege isn't defined by how much you earn.
"How come, if it's a white person who is rich it's "white privilege" but with a black person it is not considered "black privilege" its "wealth privilege"?"
Because as I explained to you in my last post privilege is not synonymous with having money, it's just an easy example some people use of how one type of privilege can have one type of effect. Privilege is related to the society and what the society judges to be normal (e.g. the majority skin colour, religion, etc) or better (More wealth = better than no wealth) as this accords advantages. Anyone with a lot of money would have wealth privilege because money affords advantages universally. Race depends on the culture and the context. A white person wouldn't be very privileged in the middle of, say, Syria right now.
"So, is "privilege" just a word to degrade the person one feels disadvantaged too? Because it's starting to appear that way to me, or perhaps I'm just misunderstanding."
No, it's related to real world differences. For instance even if you're an intelligent educated wealthy person of colour, you're far more likely to be racially profiled and stopped by the police. If you are statistically identical in every single way from wealth to education to age as a random white person but have a stereo-typically black sounding name - the otherwise identical white person is 50% more likely to get called for an interview.
"Everyone in life as some time or and other are at a disadvantage. May not have enough education, you don't live where the job market is booming, in athletics everybody experience disadvantage at some point. Sometimes tall people are at advantage, other times a smaller person might have the advantage. We all face disadvantages at some point. That does not necessitate a privilege."
We're talking about endemic and systematic discrimination against people due to their race, gender, etc. That is not acceptable and is against not only international human rights but basic human decency.
"It's kind of like when sociologist changes the meaning of racist...Using the dictionary anyone can be racist. Listen to sociologist only a white person can be racist."
You realise your quote doesn't back you up, right?
So, what is this all saying? Do white people today have to pay for the sins of others in the past?]
No, that's not what I or your quoted sources are saying.
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You state "No-one is saying that having an ethnicity = having privilege. People are saying that having an ethnicity results in tangible differences in outcome (as you yourself admit in your post) and that this is classified as a privilege."
Not to be rude, but your response sounds like double talk. How is ethnicity = privilege different to ethnicity results in a tangible difference? Is not "tangible differences" what you and others calling "privilege"?
"You can talk about Asian privilege" see, I don't view the Asian population as being any more privileged than any other group of people. I believe the differential in average income is due to their work ethic that is deep-rooted in their culture.
"Privilege is related to the society and what the society judges to be normal (e.g. the majority skin color, religion, etc) or better (More wealth = better than no wealth) as this accords advantages."
If "privilege" is intrinsic to "the majority skin color" then there is nothing that can be done to remove it...because there will always be a majority. Wheater it is religion, skin color, or any other discriminate factor.
"No, it's related to real world differences. For instance, even if you're an intelligent educated wealthy person of color, you're far more likely to be racially profiled and stopped by the police."
Maybe instead of talking about privilege, we should be asking why instances you stated happen, and what can be done to remove them. I'm not saying racial profiling is right, but I believe it to part of human nature. Just like at the airport, who do you think TSA or US Customs pay more attention to when processing people through the airport? Is it people who look American or those who appear to be from an Arab Country? When I was in downtown Qatar, Telave, Republic of Georgia or any other country I've visited I know I was being profiled. In those situations, I expected to be profiled. If a white man goes to Harlem do think he is going to be profiled?
Now, unjustly acting upon someone just because they fit a profile; i.e. white cop just pulling over someone because they are black. We should be asking those individuals why they are doing feel the need to pull them over. Especially in this day and age.
"If you are statistically identical in every single way from wealth to education to age as a random white person but have a stereo-typically black sounding name - the otherwise identical white person is 50% more likely to get called for an interview."
Again, if this is the case we should be asking why this is happening not saying it is because of a particular group is "privilege". We should be educating people to not view names as a discriminating factor. Again, I feel that things like this are happening, why is and what can be done to alleviate it.
"We're talking about endemic and systematic discrimination against people due to their race, gender, etc. That is not acceptable and is against not only international human rights but basic human decency."
Are we sure discrimination is happening? Especially on a societal scale, I have a hard time believing it. Are there bigots and individuals who discriminate? Absolutely, but that does not mean society as a whole discriminates? Perhaps the reason a white person is 50% more likely to get an interview with a black person is due to probability versus discrimination. White people account for 70% or the population, versus 11% of the population being black? I'm just asking the question, but then I don't pre-judge people based on anything. After serving in the military for 28 years and working with just about every ethnic group and I've discovered that people are people, not a skin tone. I've learned to determine a person's worth based on personal knowledge, not preconceived notions.
"No, that's not what I or your quoted sources are saying."
I'm not saying you or the other person I quoted said that...However, I tend to believe that is where these notions of privilege and define racism to limit the definition to the majority of the population. Again, the dictionary definition is defined to where anyone can be considered a racist like Louis Farrakhan and David Duke. However according to the sociology definition being Racism = Race Prejudice + Power; only David Duke is a racist because of his ethnicity has social and economic power due to being the majority of the population.
The sociologist has added this notion that one must have power in order to label a racist. So in the US, that limits a racist to only being white or am I missing something in my assessment?
Again, thanks for sharing your perspective with me and look forward to gaining further insight from your next response.
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It's like the difference between "It's fine to arrest people of colour" and "it's fine to arrest people of colour when they commit crimes". Depending on the context you might read the first example the same as the latter, but as you've been very sensitive about people being called privliged I was clarifying the rationale for the privilege is not simply that they have an ethnicity but that they benefit from it materially.
see, I don't view the Asian population as being any more privileged than any other group of people. I believe the differential in average income is due to their work ethic that is deep-rooted in their culture.
It's not really relevant to the conversation so I'll otherwise drop it, but I'll just point out that trying to define it as Asian culture is pretty superficial and blind. There are a mass of cultures in Asia - Asia being the most populous continent with more than half the world's population, and there is a lot of variety in how well different cultures do as well as why they do well (or poorly, quite a few Asian cultures perform below the norm).
If "privilege" is intrinsic to "the majority skin color" then there is nothing that can be done to remove it...because there will always be a majority. Wheater it is religion, skin color, or any other discriminate factor.
Read what I wrote again: "Privilege is related to the society and what the society judges to be normal (e.g. the majority skin color, religion, etc) or better (More wealth = better than no wealth) as this accords advantages." If we make the effort to have a society where people are judged by their character rather than their skin colour, the privilege which comes hand in hand with being white in a majority white country
Maybe instead of talking about privilege, we should be asking why instances you stated happen, and what can be done to remove them. I'm not saying racial profiling is right, but I believe it to part of human nature. Just like at the airport, who do you think TSA or US Customs pay more attention to when processing people through the airport? Is it people who look American or those who appear to be from an Arab Country? When I was in downtown Qatar, Telave, Republic of Georgia or any other country I've visited I know I was being profiled. In those situations, I expected to be profiled. If a white man goes to Harlem do think he is going to be profiled?
Now, unjustly acting upon someone just because they fit a profile; i.e. white cop just pulling over someone because they are black. We should be asking those individuals why they are doing feel the need to pull them over. Especially in this day and age.
Talking about privilege is talking about why it happened so your initial statement makes no sense.
I also think the logic of the idea "I'm not saying racial profiling is right, but I believe it to part of human nature". You might as well say murder is a part of human nature - after all there has never been a human society that has stopped murder from happening. Does that mean we shouldn't bother about trying to stop it? No, even if it is some inevitable part of human nature we can still work against it and minimise the amount of murders that happen - we don't just throw up our hands and let everyone murder each other as much as they want. The same thing applies to racism and privilege - even if it is part of human nature (which you have done nothing to show) that doesn't provide a single iota of a rationale for not continuing to fight against it.
I also find the idea that you thought you were profiled in some non-descript way while being an affluent tourist who had by choice decided to temporarily visit a country is comparable to systematic discrimination in your home country kind of galling and blind.
Again, if this is the case we should be asking why this is happening not saying it is because of a particular group is "privilege". We should be educating people to not view names as a discriminating factor. Again, I feel that things like this are happening, why is and what can be done to alleviate it.
Once again, talking about privilege and talking about the reasons something are happening are exactly the same thing. What do you even think discussing privilege is?
Are we sure discrimination is happening? Especially on a societal scale, I have a hard time believing it. Are there bigots and individuals who discriminate? Absolutely, but that does not mean society as a whole discriminates? Perhaps the reason a white person is 50% more likely to get an interview with a black person is due to probability versus discrimination. White people account for 70% or the population, versus 11% of the population being black? I'm just asking the question, but then I don't pre-judge people based on anything. After serving in the military for 28 years and working with just about every ethnic group and I've discovered that people are people, not a skin tone. I've learned to determine a person's worth based on personal knowledge, not preconceived notions.
I linked you to a scientific study that - if you'd read it - you'd see cannot be explained by the difference in per capita population as the researchers sent out the same number of applications for each race.
You are also very much stretching for rationales to avoid the issue here. Rather than presenting rationales that are backed up by facts you are coming up with "what ifs" that have no actual supporting evidence.
Also that you yourself think you are not prejudiced is not in and of itself an indicator that you are not prejudiced. People are not necessarily great at self-judgement and literature looking at discrimination shows that people tend to mtentally shy away from acknowledging issues that would cause cognitive dissonance - e.g. a person who views themself as supporting equality benefiting from inequality.
I'm not saying you or the other person I quoted said that...However, I tend to believe that is where these notions of privilege and define racism to limit the definition to the majority of the population. Again, the dictionary definition is defined to where anyone can be considered a racist like Louis Farrakhan and David Duke. However according to the sociology definition being Racism = Race Prejudice + Power; only David Duke is a racist because of his ethnicity has social and economic power due to being the majority of the population.
The sociological definition you offered at no point excludes people from exercising power if they are not a majority of the population so your criticism is moot.
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That particular study also didn't really demonstrate white privilege. There is no way to know what color "Greg Baker" is just from his name. There is no way to know what color "Derek Barnett" is just from reading his name. Or Fletcher Cox, or Nelson Agholor, or Ronald Darby, or Michael Bennett, or Brandon Brooks... I could keep going down the list of Philadelphia Eagles, but I trust I've made my point. The study also failed to use names like "Cletus","Jethro" or "Jimbo" which would likely have skewed the results. What the study showed was that more common names got better treatment. I did NOT show any inherent racial bias.
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Now why it's that way...I don't know. Maybe it's something in the water and maybe it's just the political party that's been running those places for as long as I've been alive...who knows? That said, a study evaluating call-backs in places like Boston and Chicago in regards to the names used to apply and saying with any degree of certainty that the rate of call-backs was racially charged is misleading at best and irresponsible at worst. Using cities that are in the top 30 category for highest murders and then using the two poster child cities for Black violence disproportion is just down right crooked and underhanded.
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Vaulk has clarified his position before and he is not saying that the results, both in the experiment and in real life, are caused by a difference in the criminal record of the applicants. After all in the experiment the job applications were duplicates so there was no difference in criminal record, they were exactly identical. It would therefore be impossible for this to be the explanation.
No, what Vaulk is arguing is that if a perfectly law abiding black person who never has and never will commit a crime applies for a job; the employers should not judge the applicant on the content of their character and as an individual but rather based on the colour of his skin.
This is by definition racist and despite this being pointing out Vaulk maintains these beliefs and refuses to refute them. He is racist.
He of course has never stated whether he would extend the same logic when it hurts white males - e.g. should employers consider male employees potential rapists as men commit rape at a much higher level than women and avoid hiring them? By Vaulk's racist logic, the same sexist (in this case anti-men) logic should apply. Strangely he never argues for that.
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So let's establish something outright and overtly for everyone here. Is it or is it not racist for anyone, at anytime, anywhere, for any reason, under any circumstances to judge someone based on the colour of their skin in any regard and to any degree?
But of course it's inconvenient to answer the question without either admitting that the single most symbolic arbiter of racial justice in the United States is in fact Racist by nature...or by admitting that it's somehow justified to judge people based on their skin color in some situations and circumstances without it being racist.
Neither option is convenient so ignoring it is ok I guess.
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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You state "Yet for some reason when the NAACP judges an applicant on the colour of their skin...it's not racist." yet give no indication of what you are referring to or what specifically NAACP has done. There is no way to defend NAACP because your accusation is so vague I have no idea to what you're even referring.
Not only that but it is of course completely illogical - constituting a tu quoque logical fallacy. Tu quoque means "You also" and the point of his claim can essentially be summarised "But these guys do it too". Even if Vaulk's vague claim had been substantiated and the NAACP were racist and people were hypocrtitical for not asserting that; it would simply mean that Vaulk, the employers by studies have shown discriminate against black job applicants and the NAACP are racist instead of just Vaulk and employers being racist.
The racism or lack thereof of the NAACP has no bearing on Vaulk's racism. The case for Vaulk being racist has been shown and Vaulk isn't able to present any counter argument - instead just slinging unevidenced accusations at others to try and distract from his own racism.
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"Is it or is it not racist for anyone, at anytime, anywhere, for any reason, under any circumstances to judge someone based on the colour of their skin in any regard and to any degree"?
"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
"Oh, you don't like my sarcasm? Well I don't much appreciate your stupid".
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What matters is that both yourself and the common place practice of businesses towards people of colour has been shown to be racist. That remains true regardless of the answer to your question and your attempts to sling mud and make illogical arguments of "But this guy is racist too!".
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"There's going to be a special place in Hell for people who spread lies through the veil of logical fallacies disguised as rational argument".
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There is no obligation in a debate to answer every question regardless of how irrelevant or stupid it is. Rejecting the premise as I have done is perfectly legitimate as long as you give a reason for doing so, which I did. Next time try making relevant arguments.
I also note that several posts in you have still been unable to offer any rebuttal of your argument in and of itself being racist and only furthering the case for white privilege being real.
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